How About ISB as an Open Source Software?
I have a question for this community…
During the holidays I took some time away from my own websites and investigated some other interesting scripts. I’m very interested in CMS at the moment as it allows a web community to build their own site and manage the content and it’s less dependant on a couple of webmasters to keep things interesting.
I am perpetually short on time and managing this site along with all of my other websites has become somewhat of a burden frankly.
Anyway, while looking at CMS scripts it struck me how flourishing the communities can be which are built around Open Source scripts. WordPress is a great example, and the script which has my current interest, Drupal, is another one.
What I also like about the Open Source communities is their lack of aggressive marketing and the fact they have a more integrity when it comes to how the ‘customers’ are treated (though some can really turn newbies off as well…).
What I don’t get at this point is how they fund their programming efforts and their websites. The sites can be really massive and when there’s heavy demand on a server, there’s a pretty high ticket attached usually with the hosting company. And some of the developers seem to work on upgrades and features almost 24/7 - what are these people living off?
The reason I’m asking is that I’m thinking about asking Xodoinc to release ISB 2.3 as open source software. But when negotiating this, I need to build a strong case. And I’m pretty sure that Cody won’t feel like doing this, if there’s no profit in there for him somehow.
So my questions to you are:
- Would you be interested in ISB as an open source release?
- If so, would you also be interested in participating in documentation of the software in an open source community structure?
- Is there any way to make such an endeavor profitable so at least the costs of the community can be covered and programmers can be paid?
At the moment if feels like Xodoinc. is neglecting ISB in favor of more profitable projects. This is a shame as it’s still a software with a very good base to continue developing.
I hope I can count on your feedback!
Thanks in advance,
Patricia
January 9th, 2007 at 1:01 am
I think that is an excellent idea. I have benefited tremendously from various open source solutions. It is the responsiveness and caring of the community involved that makes it feasible because, to be frank, there is often not a lot of documentation on the software. It’s up to the users to answer newbie or technical questions. As for how to make it profitable, perhaps we could set up a donate button for anyone to use who feels the software has been advantageous for them. I know I have often donated myself.
Just some thoughts…
January 9th, 2007 at 2:06 am
I hate to admit it, but I’m not sure exactly what an open source community is. Could you elaborate.
Ed
January 9th, 2007 at 3:26 am
I would love to hear more on this open source program as well. I could possibly use it at my new website http://www.everydaywahms.com.
Regards,
Kristina C.
January 9th, 2007 at 3:35 am
I don’t get where the money is in the open source community either. But there is some really good free software out there like http://www.openoffice.org and http://www.umediaserver.net. The only advantage I can imagine is the networking and “intellectual free trade” those who carry the project receive.
January 9th, 2007 at 3:58 am
Open source can have a huge positive side depending on how big the following is?
Hundreds,thousands….Millions
I would like to see a wish list of what improvments and add-on from other users?
For example your Save choices:
as HTML file
print result
as text file….
When I create a template for PHP I save as txt file then rename the file .php.
Having a save as choice would be a plus.
How about a built-in color selector?
Anyone have other suggestions?
As for profits for Cody…?
Depending who will host the site and forums and how it is set up Cody can do an on-going advertising and marketing of his products and ideas on the side like a google ad?
He would have no more control over the ISB product but he would have a new market of ebiz marketeers.
With open source like linux and mysql in the millions of users:
http://www.linux.org/
http://www.mysql.com/
ISB could have groups in the millions and this would open his markets wide open with google type advertisments on the hosting site?
Let us know what’s happening on this subject Patricia
good luck
Mike.
January 9th, 2007 at 5:16 am
Hi Patricia!
You already know my answer to the first question. Of course I would like to see ISB go open source. I think it’s an Excellent idea!
I have often wondered when/if he would release the source code rights to his software. But have felt that it is unlikely he will do this unless there is a demand for it. Even then, I think he would be more likely to sell source code rights rather than release it as Open Source. Then it’s still profitable for him and he can continue to sell it himself.
As far as paying programmers….
In many cases, the idea behind open source is that programmers “volunteer” their time making modifications, bug fixes, patches, etc. and share their new code with other developers.
I think with just a little bit of research on google, we can even find places that open source programmers gather and release open source software to them.
As Andrea says, lots of times there is very little documentation depending on the time restraints of the people involved. Also, in many cases the developers feel their time is simply better spent developing rather than documenting.
But on the other side of the coin, forums are used quite often to allow users and developers to provide help to each other. I’ve also seen wiki’s used to allow users to help document projects.
As for paying for hosting of said projects….
You can find many sources providing free hosting for open source projects. The largest in the world being SourceForge.net:
http://sourceforge.net/docs/about
So paying for hosting for an Open Source project is not an issue.
The only real hurdle I see is getting Cody to agree to it.
Anything is possible.
January 9th, 2007 at 5:49 am
-Would you be interested in ISB as an open source release? YES
-If so, would you also be interested in participating in documentation of the software in an open source community structure? YES
-Is there any way to make such an endeavor profitable so at least the costs of the community can be covered and programmers can be paid? This is a unique challenge in an Open Source arena. A true open source product is free to anyone who wants it. The drawbacks usually are the lack of documentation and support from the originator. This is where the community comes in with answers, tweaks and improvements. Most of the “programmers” for open source products enjoy the challenge of improving the product, which is why there are newer versions/updates of the products coming out quickly. Many open source products - Linux as an example - have been able to jump into a true commercial product for several companies. The product utilizes the open source code of the original with several improvements that are unique to the “branded” product - which are not open source. The challenge is finding the balance between the open source concept and funding the costs of the community.
January 9th, 2007 at 4:02 pm
All of you, thanks for the quick feedback!
First of all - Cody wrote me today to let me know he’s open to negotiations. Yeehah!
He has a couple of questions for you as well:
1) Does anybody know how it works legally if you license the use and development of the software but keep the original rights? Is that something which works with Open Source as well?
(Both Cody and I know little about legal aspects. For me that’s also because of the fact the legal terms are always in English and my legal English is not very good. I already has problems getting to a clear understanding of any Dutch legal documents…)
2) Cody has no time to work on further developments of the software. He wants to know if we can find enough programmers to take that on.
My guess is we can. I know that quite a few of our forum members are experienced programmers in several languages. I believe ISB was programmed in VBasic, but I could be wrong about this. Matt?
3) How do we come up with a profit model for this?
I quote Mike here:
“Depending who will host the site and forums and how it is set up Cody can do an on-going advertising and marketing of his products and ideas on the side like a google ad? He would have no more control over the ISB product but he would have a new market of ebiz marketeers.”
“ISB could have groups in the millions and this would open his markets wide open with google type advertisments on the hosting site?”
And other Mike:
“Many open source products - Linux as an example - have been able to jump into a true commercial product for several companies. The product utilizes the open source code of the original with several improvements that are unique to the “branded” product - which are not open source.”
This area definitely needs some further brainstorming. Would you all be interested in doing a live brainstorming session? I have a conference room facility we can use for this.
As for documentation. We have an advantage here. Most of you know I’ve done extensive documentation on how to use ISB. We also have a huge database of information gathered at our forum which can be converted is need be.
@Ed
Open source communities are web communities that form around an open source script to provide support and documentation for the product. Usually they also include a developers section - the programmers who are working on improving the software.
Several of these communities have already been pointed out here. You can browse around these site to get a feel of how they function.
The format I like most is to have a site where you can easily contribute content after becoming a member. Like I said, I have been looking into Drupal and this type of CMS offers lots of communication venues from within the site: blogging, forums, chatrooms, private messaging, event calanders etc. You can also form groups of common interest.
January 10th, 2007 at 4:09 am
Quoting Patricia:
“First of all - Cody wrote me today to let me know he’s open to negotiations. Yeehah!”
This is Great to hear! This could turn into a really cool project.
Quoting Patricia:
“1) Does anybody know how it works legally if you license the use and development of the software but keep the original rights? Is that something which works with Open Source as well?”
I’m no legal expert, but from my understanding the originator keeps the copyright on the original source. He’s simply allowing it to be freely modified and distributed by others (developers don’t get to take his copyright away, in fact, they have to leave it intact). There are quite a few different “Approved” types of open source licenses; which can be found at:
http://OpenSource.org/licenses/
The most popular being the General Public License & Lesser (Library) General Public License released by:
http://www.gnu.org/’
Only Cody can decide which license is best for him (or his lawyers) or if he’d rather come up with his own flexible license.
Quoting Patricia:
“My guess is we can. I know that quite a few of our forum members are experienced programmers in several languages. I believe ISB was programmed in VBasic, but I could be wrong about this. Matt?”
Actually, if I remember correctly it is C++. Since C++ is a very popular language I don’t think finding programmers would be too difficult.
I’m looking forward to seeing how this works out.
January 10th, 2007 at 5:35 am
I think it would be great if you told us that are clueless WHAT this software IS and how it works!
I got this email from you out of the blue, and I’ve not got a clue what you’re talking about, but I AM interested in knowing more about this, and where it goes from here!
January 10th, 2007 at 2:47 pm
@Guru Granny
My guess is you probably signed up at www.programmersecretsrevealed.com to download some of my software programs here. These software programs were created with ISB - Instant Software Builder - a software compiler which is the program I like to see released in an open source project.
I hope it’s more clear now why you received my email…
January 10th, 2007 at 2:52 pm
Keeping everyone in the loop…
Here’s a breakdown of where it’s going:
Cody will open ISB for open source developments under the following conditions:
1) Cody remains the owner of all copyrights.
2) Cody will own the domain for the OS community; I will provide the hosting. The new community will be located at www.InstantSoftwareBuilder.org
3) Use of ISB will be free for non-commercial purposes. Everyone who wants to create software for commercial purposes will have to pay a license fee.
YOU MAY NOT DISTRIBUTE COPIES OF ISB UNTILL THE COPYRIGHTS AND LICENSING ISSUES ARE LEGALLY ARRANGED!!!
Cody expects the legal process to easily take up 2 to 3 weeks. Please be patient till then…
4) Cody gets the rights to advertise his products on the site.
So far so good!
January 11th, 2007 at 2:31 am
Patricia,
If Cody retains ownership of the copyright then what happens to further developments that are based on the original code?
Typically the code becomes the property the community with proper credit going to the developers.
It seems like Cody is offering a freeware version which is different than open source. Either way is great but it seems to be an important distinction that should be acknowledged for clarity sake.
Thanks for the information and the great work.
Jason
January 11th, 2007 at 2:35 am
@Jason
Thanks for pointing that out, Jason.
I really don’t have a clue how this bit works and it also something Cody isn’t familiar with himself. He’s currently studying the copyright information from the links Matt posted earlier.
It’s definitely the intention that the source code becomes available so the community can continue developing it. That way we will actually get to see a 2.3 version being released soon!
If anybody has a more extensive knowledge about this licensing and copyrights stuff, by all means let us hear from you!
January 11th, 2007 at 2:40 am
@Everybody wanting to post!
If for some reason you cannot get your post to appear on the blog, mail me your text and I’ll put in on for you. It seems to be difficult sporadically…
January 11th, 2007 at 4:25 am
Before going open source, you should also consider those who have paid for ISB. We have not paid for open source software.
January 11th, 2007 at 6:21 am
If we bought the software can we still use it? I hope thats not a stupid question. Cause this is all very baffling to me.
January 11th, 2007 at 12:58 pm
@Claire
Yes, if you bought the software, you can use it under the conditions you bought it with. Having paid for ISB at this point would seem equal to having purchased a commercial license. - This is my personal viewpoint though, but I’m pretty certain Cody will agree with me on this.
@Anayat
Anayat, do I understand your comment correctly to mean “If I had known ISB will become open source, I wouldn’t have purchased a copy yet”?
I can understand that you might feel cheated if this is the case. However, this whole open source idea is new. Cody wasn’t considering this before I mentioned it 2 days ago. Some of us have been waiting for an ISB upgrade for 1,5 years now and it looks like going open source is the only way it is ever going to happen.
Like I said to Clair already, I’m assuming that all existing customers will automatically receive the commercial license. So under the circumstances this new move is quite good and keep in mind that everyone who wants to earn money with the software they create will have to pay for a license as well.
This is similar to many other open source solutions. For example, if you want to install Askimet anti-spam modules on your commercial website, you pay for the activation key. If you install it on a non-profit site, you get it for free…
January 11th, 2007 at 1:16 pm
Hi everyone. I’ll try to clarify what’s going on here.
Patricia has spent some of her time contacting Cody to discuss the
idea of opening ISB to the open source communities. For all those who have already paid for the software, you shouldn’t feel like you are getting a bad deal or anything. You can still use the software as you intended when you purchased.
With ISB going out to the open source communities, you will be more likely to see future updates to the software, adding more functionality. This will be a good thing to everyone in the long run.
@Jason:
Typically with Open Source the code doesn’t really become the “property” of the community. It always remains the property of the original developers. But with open source, it allows other developers to add their own modifications to the code which allows for far more rapid developments. Credit for the new code would go to whomever added it.
Freeware software rarely (if ever) allows others to modify the source code. Freeware typically just means free software that you are usually allowed to also distribute. But you rarely will get access to the actual source code of freeware software.
I do agree that clarifications will need to be made as this project progresses. But we’ll have to give Cody some time to research open source a bit to make a decision as to what type of license he wants to release his code under.
Personally, I think it’s great that Cody is even considering the idea and I hope to see others support his decision regaurdless of which license he goes with.
@ Cody:
If you have any questions for me or anything, feel free to get my email address from Patricia and I’d be more than happy to respond to any of your questions and discuss this project with you further.
I’m looking forward to this project!
January 12th, 2007 at 2:36 am
I spent a lot of time today reading up on open source software (OSS) business models and finding out more about different licensing and distribution structures.
There’s a whole world out there that is actually booming business these days it seems…
Anyway, one of the models discusses dual licensing - which seems to be the main interest of Cody at this point. From what I’ve read I understand that with a general public license (GPL aka free) you can make modifications to the original source code, but you are obliged to release your modifications back into the open source community!
With a commercial license you can modify code and keep it to yourself. Plus you get to sell your (hopefully improved) application.
MySQL is an example of OSS distributed under the dual license model.
More info and 6 other OSS business models can be found here:
http://www.itmanagersjournal.com/articles/314?tid=85
A good starting place for OSS research is this site:
http://www.b-eye-network.com/view/2752
January 13th, 2007 at 5:28 am
Hi all
I’m rusty with C+ but I’m sure I can dig out my old books to refresh my memory.
I would be interested in contributing toward the project source code
Great Job!
Thanks for the updates.
Mike.
January 14th, 2007 at 6:59 pm
Open source might be the way to go, but it probably needs more consideration though.
I was actually thinking of going the whole nine yards and purchasing the rest of the information available on ISB. However, if it’s all going to become free, or if the base structure is going to become free at least, I’m sure there are coders and developers out there who will make the information available for free!
I support the public domain as a good idea and I’m sure Cody will have covered all his angles.
My thoughts.
Have a great day
‘Bayo Akinola-Odusola
January 19th, 2007 at 6:35 am
Open source or not, Patricia’s 3 Big Books on ISB are still going to be a main-stay from which all future open-source documentation are going to be somehow based. Don’t expect to get her insightful publishings free as a result of ISB going open source. Even if other community members obtain a wealth of information from looking inside the coding, do you actually think they will somehow be ahead of Patricia’s current level of knowledge? Not likely, especially since all of her current documentation is copyrighted, meaning any inclusion of her personal discoveries within their ‘free to the community’ publishings would still result in a lawsuit, or at least a royalty being owed.
Patricia, having paid for the 3 Big Books, I couldn’t really care if the code becomes open source as far as programming goes, because I know that sooner or later, your level of knowledge of the ISB application is going to once again hit over-drive, resulting in another fine publishing for me to buy. If I have a choice between a free document written by a relative novice to ISB, or paying for your materials in the future, I choose your materials, as duplicated results are guaranteed, unlike the work-throughs commonly provided in open source communities…. WordPress for example! The only truly flawless operating copy is used by WordPress.org. All other copies are somehow deficient in performance.
February 2nd, 2007 at 2:27 pm
I agree with Joseph M..
I too have purchased all 3 big books on ISB from Patricia and found them full of great examples and insight on how to use ISB .
Patricia books will be in more demand as time progresses because the general public will have a thirst for more knowledge with examples.
February 3rd, 2007 at 6:56 am
@Mike
Thanks for your offer to help out with programming. You can expect an email from me soon!
@Bayo
If the whole 9 yards means you considered getting my books, Joseph is right: I’m not going to offer them for free. I’m considering to lower the price or to perhaps split them up even more so you can just purchase the tutorials which have your personal interest, but I need to see some compensation for my efforts to keep my family happy. I think I already contribute a LOT for free as it is…
@Joseph
My current over-drive however is focused on getting that website together for ISB - it’s going to be really nice!
Thanks for another raving testimonial.
November 16th, 2007 at 6:19 pm
Bump.
What happened on this front?
February 28th, 2008 at 2:57 pm
@Wayne
The website is here - surely you’re aware of this. The license issue is taking forever though. Really, really complex stuff. Sorry…